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This has the potential to get really heated -- and I know that in advance. So I'm just making it real clear from the start that I reserve the right to edit, delete and/or ban your ass if you get out of line. I expect -- and demand -- respect in your answers. I have a low idiot tolerance right now and have no problem in putting my foot on your hind end as I shove you out the door. That said...
Reading a couple of blog entries (and comments) got me thinking more about "the penis blog project" (link not work safe).
When we did the boobie-thon last year, we were called whores, tramps, sluts, "Tampa trash", bad wives, unfit mothers, and just about every other derogatory term known to (wo)man. We even had entire blogs devoted to how immoral we were.
Is it different for the guys because they're guys? Is it different for the guys because most of them are gay*? (And I say that because most of my gay friends in college were much more open about -- and comfortable with -- their sexuality.) Do you really think the men who decided to bare it all will face any semblance of the scrutiny the girls that participated in the boobie-thon faced? Do you think there will eventually be a backlash? Or is this different because money isn't being raised (and as some would say, money to fly a friend out for a drunkfest -- even though the cost of the ticket was actually covered by friends -- and then we kept going and went on to raise over $1250 for charity)?
All respectful opinions welcome...
*I, too, would like to see straight male bloggers participate and remove any potential for stereotyping. Any other male bloggers out there considering it?
Hey boy take a look at me...let me dirty up your mind...
I doubt the gf would like me to bare it all, so I'll simply weigh in with a point.
I think another difference between the Boobies and the Penii is that the Penii are semi-anonymous at this point. So I hardly think they'll face an ounce of scrutiny, since there doesn't seem to be any way of connecting phallus to owner. (I'm guessing we find out later after the contest?)
Then again, there's also the point that boys are "allowed" to "act out" whereas girls are more "prim" and "proper." or whatever sexist stereotype you'd like to subscribe to...¤ ¤ credit: adi | 04.17.03 at 03:58 AM | link--this ¤ ¤
Interesting...My wife always points out how unfair it is that in a lot of movies its okay to show most or all of the girl but none of the men. Is the reverse true in this instance?
I would almost consider the possibility of posting since I couldn't participate in the boobiethon but dont think I would have enough courage and dont think the wife would approve. ;)¤ ¤ credit: Lance | 04.17.03 at 05:47 AM | link--this ¤ ¤
You know Dan would participate...but there'd have to be a separate category for your garden variety exhibitionist, I would think. :)¤ ¤ credit: Sekimori | 04.17.03 at 07:26 AM | link--this ¤ ¤
I think part of it also depends on the people involved... I think that the guys involved and those who started this know they will be challenging what a few people think and believe, when you started the boobie-thon you had very innocent intentions and were hoping that it would not offend anyone. When it did offend someone, and that someone didn't handle the situation maturely the whole situation got out of control. Had you been expecting a possible whiplash and had the person just personally emailed someone saying they found it offensive and gave some reasons why I think the whole situation would have been much more civil.
So I guess we have to just wait and see... if a bunch of people start talking trash publicly and passing judgment without talking to those who started it, then yes this could get just as ugly.¤ ¤ credit: Deb | 04.17.03 at 07:27 AM | link--this ¤ ¤
I imagine that it *could* get ugly, but it's not likely to. I think it falls neatly into the old double standard that we've faced all our lives. It sucks.¤ ¤ credit: Jennifer | 04.17.03 at 07:33 AM | link--this ¤ ¤
1. Interesting about the gay man connection. I am not familiar with the bloggers who bared it all, but when I saw the photos, I assumed that many of them were gay [particularly Honest Abe!]. I just don't see that many straight guys being willing to photograph themselves and put the pix on the web. My general stereotype about gay men is that they're much more open about their sexualilty, ironically. Good for them!
2. Yes, I think there is a double standard and I'm very curious to see how/whether it will play out here. I also wonder if it was women who had the biggest backlash to the boobiethon. Women are often the harshest judges of other women [I read that one of the standard rules of thumb in a rape case is to have more men than women on the jury because women are more likely to judge the victim -- why was she wearing that? why was she in that location alone? why did she leave with him? etc.] . I haven't met too many men who wouldn't have liked the boobiethon pix. So my opinion is that, unfortunately, a small percentage of women are the ones who perpetuate the double standard. I could be wrong, but that's how I see it.¤ ¤ credit: bhw | 04.17.03 at 08:30 AM | link--this ¤ ¤
double standards? our society? pish-posh ... perish the thought.
yeah, sucks actually. i don't understand why you were chastised for wanting to raise money for charity. who cares how you do it ... you're giving the money to CHARITY ferchristsake. i'm a firm believer in the "if you don't like it, don't participate/view/etc. in it" rule.¤ ¤ credit: tj | 04.17.03 at 08:31 AM | link--this ¤ ¤
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with either nekkid fest. People who do are prudish and brainwashed by the right wing societal morale compass.
Bodies are, well, bodies. Everyone has one. Every person has boobies or a penis. There's not a great mystery in what they look like.
I hate to admit this, but I got bored looking at the penis project. All penii pretty much look the same and they're not particularly attractive or interesting unless adorned in some way [I liked the pierced and ringed photos].¤ ¤ credit: Nicole | 04.17.03 at 08:43 AM | link--this ¤ ¤
i know this is going to sound rude, but it's not meant to: do YOU have a problem with the penis blog? coz i would think that since you did get so much grief from the boobie project (which was wonderful) that you would be more "understanding". maybe instead of looking at it like a double standard, perhaps you were a trailblazer. maybe the penis blog would have gotten a lot more backlash if they had been the first to introduce a nude weblog. (again, my apologies if i sound rude. i have a way of coming off cold when i comment - hence the :-) on almost every one.) :-)¤ ¤ credit: Jenna | 04.17.03 at 09:20 AM | link--this ¤ ¤
The boobies were all "innocent" to some extent too. Their faces were not shown. There were links to their sites, but no faces were shown. So the level of anonymity was up to the boobie owner. Just like the penis blog.
And I think the biggest boobie backlash was, indeed, from other women. Most of the men LOVED it and were happy to come here and enjoy the boobies. It was women doing the finger pointing and name calling.
And some of us women would LOVE to see some penis (preferrably straight men ;)). And I don't think too many women will complain about it simply because they all like to look. They've all clicked. And it is not a detrimental statement for all of womankind.
Bottom line, you don't like it, don't click.¤ ¤ credit: Tina | 04.17.03 at 10:43 AM | link--this ¤ ¤
I don't think it's a double standard. I think the same people that got offended by the boobie-a-thon would get offended at the penis blog project. Neither offends me, but I rather like nudity.
That said, I do want to point out that it wasn't the vagina-a-thon. While I'd flash my little boobies to the world I think that anything below the waist would be off limits for me. So having this discussion in a way is like comparing apples and bananas (pun intended). Perhaps we should have some sort of a contest where the men flash their breasts....¤ ¤ credit: kimmie | 04.17.03 at 10:54 AM | link--this ¤ ¤
Personally, I would have no problem "baring all". I'm a straight man, and have relatively few nudity taboos (comes from years of theatre :)
But I don't think I could publish said photos on the web, where it could get connected back to me. I'm a filmmaker, and while I don't like counting chickens, I don't want to compromise possible future public scuttling.
Or maybe it doesn't matter at all. Hell, by the time anyone would care about my personal life, we'll all probably be walking around naked anyway.
m.¤ ¤ credit: Mugsy Malone | 04.17.03 at 11:13 AM | link--this ¤ ¤
i'm the one responsible for the Penis Blog Project. so if there's any trash to
i'm glad the double standard issue was raised, because that was one of the
it's also meant to remind people that there are real and complex individuals
there are also issues of exposure and identity involved. as people who publish
as for most of the participants being gay men - well, that's more a function of
i really appreciate all the thoughtful discussion here. it'l be interesting to
Deb, it wasn't just one person. I got DOZENS of comments and e-mails the public never saw. All mean, vicious and nasty in nature (many that left me in tears).¤ ¤ credit: robyn | 04.17.03 at 11:59 AM | link--this ¤ ¤
Hmm. I think there are actually two double standards being talked about here:
1. It's more `acceptable' for a woman to display herself naked in a public (or really semipublic, indecent exposure laws being what they are) setting: TV, movies, magazines, posters, billboards, nudie bars, etc.
Maybe I should refine that a little further and say `a semipublic, commercialized setting'. Women don't bare it all for free, as a rule, because that would be dumb when most men and some women are quite willing to pay good money.
So--our first double standard: ``There's a market for nude women that there ain't for nude guys.'' How much that is due to honest-to-goodness perceptual preference of the female form to the male form, and how much to culture/ society/ marketing, is left as an exercise to the reader.
2. The second double standard is the more obvious one (to me at least): ``Women who sell their sexuality (for money, attention, or any other human currency) encounter more opprobrium than men who do the same.'' How much of this is due to people being genuinely sick of sex-as-product, how much to `instinctive' notions of the male as responsible for sexual display, and how much to culture/ society/ Stupid White Men is again left as an exercise etc.
So: It's more `okay' to SEE a naked woman and less okay to BE a naked woman. How bloody odd is that? The PBP is kicking around quite a few unspoken assumptions. Bravo for that...though I doubt my P will be on that BP unless I get a lot more intrigued about the notion than I am at present.¤ ¤ credit: Luis | 04.17.03 at 12:00 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
I'm honestly hoping that because it's broken gender barriers now, all the negativity we faced last year will somehow subside...or at least be greatly reduced...¤ ¤ credit: robyn | 04.17.03 at 12:03 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
I think that the name calling after your boobie-thon had other intentions different from just criticizing the idea or calling it un-moral. If I remember well, there were other issues going on (the well-known popularity catfight) and you know how people who don't like us are always looking for every little reason to get back at us.
So it wasn't really because a few girls were showing their boobies for a good cause; it was because they were angry for any or other reason and they wanted to tell everyone you were un-moral or something like it to make a statement against you. I'm sure that some of those who called you and your friends all those ugly things wouldn't mind getting naked themselves.
Whatever the reasons people use to attack others are, some of them are just vicious. You're right.¤ ¤ credit: Bea | 04.17.03 at 12:17 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
that's what i'm thinking robyn - that maybe since the first time generated so much rude feedback, maybe the second time would bring about more people interested in donating money on account of it not being quite as taboo as the first time around..¤ ¤ credit: Jenna | 04.17.03 at 12:29 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
Funny. I had seen the Penii site on another site and sent the link to a friend. Her reply:
"One question, is that a collection of gay penii? If so, it certainly supports the theory that all good cock are attracted to each other. It's been so long since i saw a huge cock in person, that it's beginning to feel like a fairy tale ... a great story that was told to me, that I have to take on faith. Nevertheless, it does my heart good to know that huge cocks do exist somewhere and that they are on display for all to see. The other thought that occurs to me, is that men seem to very much want others to see their cocks. "¤ ¤ credit: Jeff | 04.17.03 at 12:47 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
Double standards or not, I have been wanting to see Jonno's penis for over a year.
I love the penis blog as much as I loved the boobies!¤ ¤ credit: michele | 04.17.03 at 12:47 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
i never thought too much about joining. no one knows who i am so it wouldn't really matter anyways.¤ ¤ credit: ed | 04.17.03 at 01:01 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
While I do believe that there was a healthy portion of the old, tired double-standards at work behind the criticism you recieved last year, I (like some of the others here) think there were numerous other factors at work as well.
The simple fact is that wherever you find smart, healthy and sexy women willing to show off any amount of skin you'll also find people with gigantic bugs up their @ss about the whole idea. In this case, you managed to bring together some of the smartest and most opinioned women on the web in the name of helping a friend and a cause by showing some skin for donations. The amount of inflammatory elements involved there was staggering, and while I don't think any of you deserved any criticism, I wasn't too surprised when you announced that it had arrived. Remember, many of the people out there in blogistan exist solely to crush the happiness of others, and your experiences over the past year have done more to prove that than those of any other blogger, male or female.
Finally, I think the reason that you're seeing a double standard *could* be pretty innocuous. The internet is a "sausage-fest" most of the time anyway, so it goes without saying that naked boobies will draw more traffic than naked weenies. Add to that the fact that most people (myself included) think that boobies are yummy and weenies are boring, and I think you have your answer. In order to have controversy one must first generate interest, and most of the men (and women) that found the time to get morally outraged by your boobiethon will be too timid to go anywhere near a freshly exposed wang.
Thus I'll draw my novel to a close. Keep up the good work, Robyn. I thoroughly enjoy your writing, and I miss it when you don't post.¤ ¤ credit: Justin | 04.17.03 at 01:03 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
The bulk of my answer is basically an amalgamation of the above responses, though I think I can add this:
We will most likely never know exactly why your Boobie-thon brought about such an uproar because those people usually don't have the balls *ahem* to explain exactly why they have a problem with it and will usually fall back on some "immorality" spiel. And speaking of "immorality", if they've been on the net long enough to find blogs (ANY blog), then they've been on the net long enough to find much worse (adult filters be damned...they only work half the time). I'm sorry, but "immorality" is just a smokescreen they're trying to hide behind. If nekkid boobies scare you that much, you most likely don't own a computer...or a television.
Reasons I can think of for them being upset:
1) Jealousy. Obvious.
As far as the penis project (the plural of penis is penises, btw, I had to look it up because penusii was cracking me the hell up), I really don't have any problem with it whatsoever, although I stick by my earlier statement that I, personally, find boobies more aesthetically pleasing than penises.
Would I ever consider submitting a picture for it (yes, I'm straight)? Possibly, but I'd need to find the right gal to get me over my damnable shyness first. High school girls pretty much stuffed me in my snailshell y'see? In real life (ack, dirty words!), I am so antisocial (read: shy) it usually takes me a couple weeks to talk to someone new. Heck, it's the reason I'm not going to Gnomedex (well, that and the expense).
Wow, that was a tangent. Start again...
I do not think that the penis project will see as much controversy as the boobie project did. First off, because I've a notion that those who spoke against the boobie project were actively looking for it, while they will most likely be less-inclined to actively seek out penises on the net (this is just a hunch). I'm willing to bet they salivated over every single picture (mmm...chocolate) before working up some indignation to post. Second, some of the people who were so uptight about breasts sound like the kind of people who try to make believe that male and female sex organs don't exist. Maybe they've had bad experiences, maybe they were brought up by thick-headed parents, maybe they just have weird ideas. We won't know until they speak up.
Double standards? Of course there will be some, because many people are bigots and hypocrites. But you know what? That's their loss. Rockin' Robyn, you do your thang, and try not to give a damn what the less enlightened. Same to you, Jonno, and if I ever get the balls (*holds up a sign saying "A Joke"*), I'll send you my entry.
It's sad to think it, I know, but I've a feeling there will always be someone or a group of people who has a problem with what everyone else does. I also know that it may be hard not to care what these people think, sometimes, especially when it's something you think is so innocent while they feel it's the most vile thing they could find on the net (the fools). But honestly, you have to realize that these people will probably always be around, and unless they start talking about their true feelings, we'll never understand what species of insects live in their backsides.
Gack, I've taken up enough of your comment board. Keep up the good work, guys.¤ ¤ credit: Mike | 04.17.03 at 01:55 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
Having seen ed's (straight) penis, I can say that yes, he should definitely try to show it off. *evil grin*
As for the double standard, I think it's just that most people that I know seem to think that a guy who gets naked is just a bit wierd, but a girl who does it has no self-respect and is a tramp. Being in the adult industry, I can tell you that I have plenty of respect for myself and the other girls (and guys!) who decide to get naked, and very few of them are trampy at all.¤ ¤ credit: chicky | 04.17.03 at 02:05 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
The boobie project was a hoot, was for a good cause, and yet still clean fun. It's just boobs, people. Think of it as a car wash with a bunch of cheerleaders geting all soapy. Bow chica bow now.
PenisBlog is naked, hardcore, here-ya-go meat. Nowhere near as much "cuteness" and no sublety (and how *exactly* are bloggers supposed to know who's who?)
Personally, I don't have a problem with either campaign.
Quite frankly, if Robyn had made a vagina-a-thon, I'd have passed. There's fun.. and then there's crude.
I don't have any stats to back this up, but I can't see PenisBlog being anywhere near as "successful" as the boobie-a-thon (And when does boobie-a-thon II start?)¤ ¤ credit: Quinn | 04.17.03 at 02:22 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
October! Gonna tie it in with "Breast Cancer Awareness Month" this year. :-)¤ ¤ credit: robyn | 04.17.03 at 02:24 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
I found neither offensive and found the Penisblog extremely interesting (mmm, mmm, mmm)... would be interesting to know if Jonno has had any adverse comments. The Men I know would joke about it but wouldn't doing something without a large quantity of ale inside them, and it would be more likely be done in a Pub or streaking down a street.
On a side note, Robyn, I honestly believe that the person who caused a lot of the heartache last time had a jealousy problem. You could have been Mother Theresa and should would have found something to take a pop-shot at you. My initial reaction at boobie-thon was why the f*ck would I pay for someone I don't know to travel across America for a party? then, I read what you were actually doing and indeed sponsored you.¤ ¤ credit: sian | 04.17.03 at 02:30 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
Simply because society's messed up.
I remember reading not long ago another double standard dealing with the new Nokia vibrating "massaging" phone (vibelet.com). Why is it "socially acceptable" that a woman can keep a vibrating massaging phone (sex toy) on hand but if a man did that, it'd be "perverted and sick".
Because.... society's messed up. I myself have no problem with either 'shindig'. It's all very entertaining for me, and all the better if it's going to good cause.¤ ¤ credit: Christine | 04.17.03 at 02:49 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
I've seen men & women post nude photos on FilePile for some time. I've done it. I had no issues with the boobiethon (or the penisblog) because of it. One night there were FP'ers from around the world posting their own "naughty bits" photos and it was quite a blast.
Bring on the ManFruit(tm)!¤ ¤ credit: Christine | 04.17.03 at 03:03 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
I'd do it if it weren't for the fact that I can't stand to be photographed with it hanging out. I can't even stand having my picture taken when I'm wearing shorts.
I may be making grand statements, but yes, it feels like there are double standards. I may not be seing the other side fully, and I do not know if the men have gotten any hate mail but I find it really frustrating that these standards exist. It makes absolutely no sense, at all.¤ ¤ credit: munin | 04.17.03 at 03:26 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
On a tangent: A Click a Day Saves Boobies.
Seriously, though, through the use of banner adds these people send money to various organizations to help with some good causes, including help against Breast Cancer. I click on each one at least once a day. Read the FAQ, it'll explain everything.
I know it's a tiny bit off-topic but this site sees much more traffic than my little slice of the web. My apologies, Robyn. ;)¤ ¤ credit: Mike | 04.17.03 at 03:41 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
Thanks for the link, Mike! I put it at the top of the boobie page since it still gets quite a bit of traffic.¤ ¤ credit: robyn | 04.17.03 at 04:13 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
I'd like to branch off the double standard tree just a little bit to more clearly define it, I hope. I think that most people liked the boobie project and (like me) have it marked on their annual charitable calendars. :)
The majority of the hateful, small minded comments I read from this site seemed to be directed at a stereotype of "acceptable" behaviour for wives & mother figures. While I didn't have a problem with it (heck, I DONATED!), it seemed that the puny brains attacked the ladies not because they were women getting freaky, but rather because they were wives & mothers "misbehaving". And, the harshest comments (that I saw) were from women.
I don't know if this makes sense, but --I guess-- what I'm trying to say is that I don't think the "double standard" involves men at all. Hence no (documented) backlash to the penis project. I think the double standard exists between what is acceptable for "girls" versus mothers/wives.
If this doesn't make any sense, I wouldn't be surprised. The whole insanity of attacking the Boobies Bloggers didn't any sense to me either.¤ ¤ credit: Kevin | 04.17.03 at 04:15 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
But in that case, would it be any different if the penis blog participants were married or fathers?¤ ¤ credit: robyn | 04.17.03 at 04:23 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
Let me ask this - My guess is many of us here are mid-20's, early 30's or so. Let's pretend we are out our parents houses, going through some boxes of old stuff, papers, junk, etc. We come to an old manilla envelope, open it up and find some photos and a couple of magazines. The photos are pictures of our mother osing naked. The photos also published in the magazines. These were photos and magaiznes both before and after we were born. We never knew about them until now.
Now, before we go saying "it doesn't bother me, it was her business, yadda yadda yadda" lets take a step back and realize what these magazines are truely for. Call it art, call it whatever, but all they are are masturbation rags. So, in our scenario, there is our mother lying stark naked in provocative poses. Now think about some guy masturbating to a picture of your mother.
Where am I going with this? Well, fast forward to perhaps 15, 20 years from now. The Internet of course will be transformed but such a huge repository for information of all kinds, that it dwarfs todays total number of bits and bytes. Our even go back a bit, 10 years, and our kids are on the Net, decide to do a search for their mother at school and happen to come up on a historical archive that happens to have pictures of your breats (and penis's for the fathers, as to not be biased about this). What do you tell them after they have been embarrased at school and ashamed at what they are seeing?
My point is this - when we become married and parents and professionals, we now have certain responsibilities. We are now part of a society that does have certain rules and moral standards. In our society, it is not morally acceptable to go flashing our breasts or penis's in public (and yes, this site and the penis site is a public place). Whether we all agree with that moral standard or not, that is just the way it is. Do I stand up for it? No. I am all for if a woman wants to walk around bare chested as a man, than it should be fine. We should not be ashamed of that nor should it be taboo, however, this is not what the majority of the judea-christian western civilization thinks is acceptable, so I simply have to accept that. Here is a good example of what I am talking about - a nurse ran a web site where she would poses and have sex with her husband for viewing of members of the site. They of course made money off of this. Her work found out about this and fired her. Do I think that is right? Of course not. But do I understand why they did it? Yes. Because of those moral standards that our society has adopted, I agree that was the right thing to do.
As the winner of the popular vote of last year's boobie-thon, I definately have no problem with the penisblog either. My only problem is that I'm bisexual and I don't find looking at the male penis all that stimulating. It's a weird looking thing don't you think? hehe
I did however simply adore the humorous entries. I have a collection of photos of people doing weird things with penii & boobies and it's that creativitiy that made me go and look at all the entries. I have one with a man who dressed his penis up like a doll, little dress, hat, arms and drew the face on the "fireman's helmet". It is really damn funny.
Bravo for those that entered & my hat goes off to Abe!¤ ¤ credit: Jessica Parker | 04.17.03 at 05:54 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
I have read Playboy on more than one occasion (yes, actually read it). I have never, ever masturbated to it. Next argument, please.
My only responsbility is to my husband. I am a grown adult without children. Period. And if we based every decision we ever made in life on what our kids might think of it one day.....
That said, if I ever am blessed with children -- I would hope above else I've taught them to love and respect the human body. Not be ashamed of theirs. Or mine. Or anyone else's for that matter.
Pity you can't separate art and photography from hardcore porn.¤ ¤ credit: robyn | 04.17.03 at 06:01 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
When we have kids, mostly everything we do is and should be based on them. They are our legacy and mark on the world. I for one, hope the impression I leave on this world through my son is a good one.¤ ¤ credit: garbanzabean | 04.17.03 at 06:26 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
I. Do. Not. Have. Kids.
And if I did, they will be raised to be as open-minded, caring, and respectful of their body -- and everyone else's around them -- as I am.
But I refuse to live my childless life as if I have a responsibility to something I don't. You live yours the way you see fit. I'll do the same.
Thank you. Drive through. Enjoy your tour.¤ ¤ credit: robyn | 04.17.03 at 06:28 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
Dan and I do have children yet still live our lives the way we see fit. I think they'll both respect our honesty and learn to be honest and forthright themselves.
And distinctly lacking in the false shame and modesty foisted on them by a 200 year old religious splinter group who got so very lucky.¤ ¤ credit: Sekimori | 04.17.03 at 06:43 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
I've actually pondered what Garbanzabean there has said before though. I do have a kid, and I posted nude photos on line (not just of breasts either, mind you) after he was born. At the time, I didn't think about archiving. I really don't know how I would feel if my child, or my current boss, or my Mom, found those photos. Not the whole masturbation thing, but more so I just don't really know if I want that much info spread about me. (Bra & wet t-shirt photos, don't care. I'm talking about the nude ones.)
It is a valid point, and one that a lot of us in the blog world don't stop to think about when we are just tossing photos online. However, we are all adults, and we should all know by now that we are making a choice to suffer from the consequences of our own actions. If it keeps me from running for office someday, oh well. I didn't want to be president anyways.
All in all - his comment really addresses a bigger issue. What's happening to the data we are putting out there? And do we think about it before we do it? I normally don't - but should I? In my opinion - yes, I should.
But getting back on topic - gay, straight, I don't care. A hot naked man is a hot naked man. I watch "Queer as Folk" for a reason! Mmmmm... hot meat!¤ ¤ credit: Christine | 04.17.03 at 06:46 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
If you go have a look at the boobie photos, you'll notice that the most risque photos were mine. I was the only one who really came close to "bearing the whole breast". You should also know that I did this because my blog is anonymous. There are a select few people who know who I really am. My blog is a form of escapism for me. I can say what's really on my mind, flash my boobies without it coming back to bite me on the arse later.
That said, even if I wasn't anonymous, I still would have participated, perhaps not showing quite as much, but I still would have donned a wet t-shirt and helped raise money for charity.
If children or parent in the future came across it and asked about it, I would explain that I'm not ashamed of my body and that I helped raise money for charity, for breast cancer research.
BTW, here in Australia, women have stood on the steps of parliament with bare breasts branded with slogans and have not been put in prison for it. I don't know where you live, but I don't want to visit the place if the laws are so strict.
My blog is anonymous for reasons other than me showing flesh BTW. It's because I talk about bisexuality and I work with children, and I don't want my mother to know I've had a threesome with my life partner, but it sure is great to chat anonymously about it with people.
We all knew what we were doing when we flashed our boobies. We're all proud liberated women who are not ashamed for ourselves or our future children. Can you say the same?¤ ¤ credit: Jessica Parker | 04.17.03 at 06:48 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
Christine, I think putting "full nudes" online is different than "rack shots". There's nothing with my breasts attached to my face that my child would ever have to see. Purposely. Not that there's anything wrong with those who do. It's just a distinction I've made for the photographs I put online of myself.¤ ¤ credit: robyn | 04.17.03 at 06:56 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
So yes, this information is out there right now and I shudder to think about how much is collected in the next 5 to 10 years. So yes, I am one who is now very careful about what I say and do online for the very sake that it can come right back and bite me or my children.¤ ¤ credit: garbanzabean | 04.17.03 at 07:07 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
In a way I agree that what you do affects how others see you and that's why I tried to make sure potential clients who visited my own blog didn't know about my boob picture because some of them may not have taken me seriously if they have a hangup about it (or if they liked it too much). It's also an individual choice we have as Americans to decide what is or isn't harmful to our reputations and whether we give a rat's ass. But I also believe that when you have kids, you owe it to them to be a good role model and not do anything that would shame them and again, that is an individual decision based on current social mores and if your child complains about something specific. I don't have kids and probably never will so I consider, to a certain extent, whether any action would put a perpetual stain on my family name because I believe everyone has that overall responsibility to their family. Setting fire to a school, robbing a bank, killing someone, yes that would stain my family name. Having a picture of my boobs on the internet amidst a sea of a billion pages showing much worse, no, worth no more than a momentary "what were you thinking?", if that. Of course, every family has their own set of standards so their "stain potential" would be different. With that said, c'mon. Is just showing some boobs or penii really that morally reprehensible? It would be tough for me to live with a moral threshold that high!¤ ¤ credit: Lauri | 04.17.03 at 07:10 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
Heh! Public caches are for those too lame to block the spiders.
I'm over 30, done tons of silly things, and really don't care if I have to point back to any single one of them as an object lesson.
The fact that we have categorized several million shades of color is somehow lost on the moral absolutists who insist that life is made up of black and white terms.
It is up to each of us to live our lives responsibly - as we see fit. Sure each action has a consquential outcome, but as long as we are prepared for it (or can mitigate it), its all good!
(While I might not readily pose for a straight twig&berries shot, I'm all for a "Blogger Boxers/Briefs Booty Drive") :-)
Actually, I should have said "It's our individual choice as humans...", not just Americans. Sorry to get all patriotic in front of my non-American friends!¤ ¤ credit: Lauri | 04.17.03 at 07:26 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
I am not ashamed of my breasts. I have a husband that enjoys them and respects them. I have a child that was nourished for the first year of her life by them. IF I had been a participant in the boobie-a-thon to raise money for breast cancer research I would not be ashamed of it, or scared that one day my munchkin would come across it on the internet. I will be raising her to love her body and to not be ashamed of it.
Whups, I came back to this thread after seeing Robyn's post up with the excerpt of Garbanza's post...
But my post under that topic still stands.
Here's a funny story. *I* found nekkid pics of my mother when I was about 15. Was I shocked/ashamed? You betcha. But I thought about it for about 10-15 minutes and it quickly changed to admiration and respect. She was in her teens in the 70's, and that's what a lot of them DID during that time. This is a brand new century, and posting nekkid pics on the internet is what people DO nowadays if they're feeling adventurous.
I am lucky enough to have been raised by parents who tried their damnedest not to infuse me with any of their prejudices or beliefs while at the same time teaching me how to decide for myself what is "right" or "wrong" rather than trying to tell me directly what "right" and "wrong" are.
Did seeing these pictures scar me? Nope. High school now, that was a bitch. All those vindictive and menacing girls, hoo-boy, they worked a number on my psyche. I still haven't healed completely from that wreck (I'm 25 now), but I came to terms with those pictures within an hour after discovering them. I understood it. I put the pictures back. Whem my mom came home I gave her a big hug, which puzzled the hell out of her, and then got on with my life. No regrets (about that incident). No Oedipal complex. No emotional scar tissue or seared eyeballs.
You know, this thread has ALMOST convinced me to go ahead and do that penis project just as a sort of a visual "screw you" to people who think web nudity such as that and the Boobie project is "oh so wrong". (I said ALMOST, people, there's still a long way to go...*cough*).
I'm sorry, but I do not think becoming a "wife" or "mother" or "husband" or "father" means having to change your views or your deeds. Sure, there's always the chance that kids will find stuff like this, but if you raised them well (notice I did not say "correctly"...there is NO "correct" way to raise a child), they will be able to deal with it splendidly.
Case in point: I'm not sure whether she wants to be made an example of, so I won't mention her name here unless she says it's okay...(some of you will know who I'm speaking about)
One of my new friends has this blog. She is married with two kids. She posts semi-nude pictures of herself on this blog once in a while (though they are almost always done with humor). Her husband has no problem with her doing this (and appeared in a picture with her, grinning like a loon and stark nekkid). Her kids are ADORABLE, and all of them seem to enjoy their weekends lying around in various states of undress. I've seen these kids. I've heard them speak. She's told stories about what they do. And I have to say, these are some of the most well-adjusted kids I've seen. These are kids who are going to be able to deal with pretty much anything that comes their way when they get older. Why? Because their parents are very open with them...and raise them well.
I'm not sure what else to say. I doubt very much that you can be swayed to see our side of things, because usually people with such deeply-ingrained taboos have a death-grip on them.
The bottom line is this: These events REALLY are not hurting anyone. People are not being tricked to go see the pictures. In fact in most cases they are warned about what they are going to see before they enter. If they decide to have kids later in life, or have kids now...so what? From what I've seen from the posts these people have been making, they are most likely going to make fantastic parents (if they aren't already). Responsible does not mean boring.¤ ¤ credit: Mike | 04.17.03 at 07:36 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
Oh, I didn't mean mine were "full nudes" with my face attached. Mine were more (MUCH more) along the lines of the "Vagina Monologues" blog that was discussed over at BoingBoing.net. And full nude rack shots, not with bra or t-shirt over them. Fortunately, they were attached to an account that has a username different then my real name. (It was a public site; I couldn't do a thing about spiders of it, or people snagging them - and I really didn't care.)
I agree with Don 100% - "It is up to each of us to live our lives responsibly - as we see fit. Sure each action has a consquential outcome, but as long as we are prepared for it (or can mitigate it), its all good!" I was merely musing on how a lot of people don't think about the consequential outcome when they do things online.
Garbanza, I am well aware of what is already archived on the Net. I've used those archives many, many times.
Don, I think there needs to be a "wet briefs" contest. Frontal, not buns. Heck, I'll even offer up the space to host it! Who is game?¤ ¤ credit: Christine | 04.17.03 at 07:54 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
re: Sian's question about negative responses to the PBP ... what few i've received or read have either been along the lines of "ugh, i really didn't need to see that", or "this is just plain stupid" - which i think say more about the people making the comments then they do about the project itself. i wish i had tuned in for the Boob-A-Thon while it was happening, but it seems from reading about it here that a lot of the negative reactions it received can be looked at in the same way.
Garbanza's concerns about both projects illustrate this point nicely. even if every flash of skin we expose on the Web is being archived and catalogued and will come back to confront us someday ... well, so what? we're posting pictures of ourselves in a friendly and playful context, fer crissakes. that's it. it's a far cry from publicly participating in "lewd sex acts" or covering ourselves in chocolate syrup or any of the other ridiculous false analogies in Garbanza's post.
(and as for our putting things on the Web with a carefree disregard that others will innocently stumble upon it at be shocked, shocked by what they see - well, that's a load of crap too. anyone who managed to look at the photographs on my site had two opportunites to opt out before seeing them.)
in short, we're not hurting anyone. and it's difficult to see how anyone else could be damaged by what we're doing, either now or in the future. as Robyn most excellently put it, " If I ever am blessed with children -- I would hope above else I've taught them to love and respect the human body. Not be ashamed of theirs. Or mine. Or anyone else's for that matter." couldn't have said it better myself. (The last part of Lauri's post above was pretty on the mark as well.)
i don't want to get all ad hominem on anyone's ass, but it seems to me that all this talk about "personal responsibility" to generations yet unborn is taking a certain kind of paranoia, insecurity, and moral judgement a bit too far.
¤ ¤ credit: jonno | 04.17.03 at 08:07 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
(the above was posted while Mike was posting his last entry above. so i guess all i really have to add is: yeah, what he said ;)¤ ¤ credit: jonno | 04.17.03 at 08:12 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
jonno, the chocolate syrup swipe was actually a dig at me and one of my Boobie-Thon entries. I did, in fact, use chocolate syrup in a photo. And I'd do it again in a heartbeat, too. That was one of everyone's favorites -- my husband included -- from the 'contest'.¤ ¤ credit: robyn | 04.17.03 at 08:16 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
I think, as usual, my posts were taken way out of context. I was not spewing off about what I think is socially responible or doing any such bible thumping act. I can say I am a liberal and damn proud of it. I am all for the "do your own thang" pretext. But I also recognize, as member of this western civilization, that in order to function in it, there are certain behaviors I have to practice and conform to in order to fit in. Or more so, in order to not "stand out." I see a lot of talk going on about "teach our kids to be proud and love their bodies." I fail to see how posting pictures of your body for others to see is teaching them to be proud and love their bodies. Even more so, what if right now they were to see us on these web sites posting pictures of ourselves and we told them it is perfectly ok to do so (as we are saying here). To them, it is perfectly ok to do so then. So what happens if they decide to click a shot of themselves nude on your web cam , and it gets posted to the page. Completely innocent we may think, but I bet that child services will be at your door before you can say moveable type.
And now, Garbanzabeans, I would respectfully ask you to get your own blog and Trackback or link this entry if you have anything further to add on the comments for this discussion. Because you're borderlining on taking over my content with your essays -- which are going beyond mere comments at this point. You've made your point. And again I would point out that I don't have children so many of your concerns do not apply to me personally -- and again, this is MY blog. Thank you.¤ ¤ credit: robyn | 04.17.03 at 08:27 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
sorry, Robyn - guess i should've done some research first. it's just that every time i hear about chocolate syrup-smearing, i think about the whole hoo-ha regarding the brilliant Karen Finley and the NEA in the early 90s - it's become a sort of catchphrase ignorant people use to describe things they don't understand or feel threatened by, and it was in that sense that i read Garbanza's comment.
sorry for the confusion. you've obviously taken chocolate-smearing to a whole new level, and for that (and everything else you discussed here) you deserve every respect ;)¤ ¤ credit: jonno | 04.17.03 at 08:30 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
The people who are offended by the boobie-thon and the penis blog are the very last people I care about impressing. As hard as it may be for you to believe, Garbanzabean, a significant number of people are completely unconcerned about what "society" thinks. We don't worship in your churches, we don't participate in your polite little charades, and we don't really care if you think we are unfit for this job or that job.
In fact, the creative, go-for broke moxie demonstrated by the girls from the Boobie-Thon is a much more valuable asset in the real world than anything offered by timid souls who are ashamed of the human form. Hell, if you are too frightened to take your shirt or pants off for a picture, I damn well don't want to count on you to run my company. I want a fearless risk-taker calling the shots, not a Victorian minded mouse.¤ ¤ credit: ronbailey | 04.17.03 at 08:41 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
Apparently, people are just not reading what I am writing. I am hardly a conformist.
I fail to aee how that is respectful. But of course, I agrees on the side of Robyn, so naturally, it will not be looked down upon.
I however, have posted very respectfully, not trying to offend anybody, or make lewd comments, and of course, I am told to leave.
Someone find the logic in that.
Well, I'm kinda late to this party today, but I think it's up to us, and only us, to decide what our nudity comfort level is. As for "owing" your future children--who says you'll have any. And if you do, this is one of those situations where that little thing called honesty comes into place. You were proud of your body, you did it because it felt right at the time. I think we worry too much about "what other people will say" and not enough about listening to ourselves. *dusts off soapbox* thanks for the space Robyn. :)¤ ¤ credit: Michelle | 04.17.03 at 09:12 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
There is a difference in being told to leave, and being asked to keep your comments down to comments -- rather than essays. It's called netiquette. Look it up. I never told you to leave -- not once. I told you to get your own blog and Trackback me if you wished to take over MY blog with your extensive content and comments. There's only so many ways you can state and restate your opinions without simply repeating yourself and wasting all of our time.¤ ¤ credit: robyn | 04.17.03 at 09:25 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
Hey... to each their own.
I remember the bigger flak over the "Rack Browser Project", what made that so double-standard-sy is that you KNEW all the male supporters would never have the courage to whip out their peckers for all the web to see.
Some guys now have the courage. And I'm glad they did.
I figured I'd help Jonno out and be the "token straight male", but, uhm... well its kind of cold where I am right now. Uh, hope you understand. You know, it's an "image" thing.
On a serious tip, I wish these guys luck. But in answer to your question Robyn, I would imagine the backlash varies on the level of success too. "Boobies to Florida" was a BIG thing. I'm sure these poor guys will get more crap for being "gay" than being male.¤ ¤ credit: -e- | 04.18.03 at 03:17 AM | link--this ¤ ¤
Just to reiterate - I think we've all marked our calendars for 2003! :)
Let's raise some money (and some shirts!) ;)¤ ¤ credit: Kevin | 04.18.03 at 07:12 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
heh, the first `dirty whore' post. I was wondering how long it would take before someone worked him/herself up to that point.
On the Internet, we'll never lack for mental midgets such as these. It's nice to see that there will always be people who are wonderful guardians of their neighbors' morals.
Surely, within the context of the Boobie-Thon, there are some odd bits to be gleaned about just how much free time and disposable income we actually have and what we choose to do with these. I was a little bemused by it all myself. But mostly I just thought it was fun, and even philanthropic, especially considering how much money came in after it was publicly announced that further donations would go to charity.
Oh, and btw I myself have seen a nude photo of my mom. Not very revealing, but unmistakably nude and equally unmistakably my mom. And that brings up a point.
At the risk of committing an essay here (your pardon, lady Robyn), I'd like to note that I found a nude picture of my mama in a box in her own house. If instead it had been shot on a digital camera and subsequently posted to a remotely-hosted blog and copied fifty or a hundred (or even a thousand) times by people who especially liked her looks, it would therefore have survived the eventual erasure of the camera's memory and (let us postulate) the erasure of the web site by a now-repentant Mom.
But! Twenty years pass. I grow up to the age where I'm surfing the Internet, or browsing the Web, or Immanentizing the Eschaton or whatever they'll be calling it in twenty years. With the hojillions of pieces of information howling into the Internet every day of those twenty years, the majority of which are probably pictures of naked women, what are my chances of actually running across the God damned thing? Nonzero, but trivial.
Even if I suspected there existed a photo of Mom on the Net, and wanted to find it, how would I do that? By Googling for "Mom"? Or even "Jane X. Doe", her full name? Even if I knew what was in the photo and Googled for "young woman on camping trip crouching in icy cold mountain stream"? Not bloody likely!
People who worry about nude photos on the Internet eventually popping up to cause trouble decades later probably know plenty about nude photos and moral opprobrium and fuck-all about the Internet.
Thank you and good day.¤ ¤ credit: Luis | 04.18.03 at 07:49 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
Bodies are bodies, and they're beautiful - men and women alike. I personally enjoyed both ;) I'm guessing a person's discomfort with those things generally comes from something they're uncomfortable with about/within themselves. It's representative.
That and there'll always be someone out there who needs to criticize, contradict or control anything that doesn't fall neatly into their own comfort zone.
Your site, your choice. Period.¤ ¤ credit: Tonya | 04.18.03 at 10:26 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
I'm coming in to this late, but I have to say, "Hooray for Penii as well as Boobies". I mean, who cares? They're not attached to faces, it's interesting, provactive, expressive (and heh...sometimes impressive -- enough that I wonder who belongs to which...lol).
More power to whomever is comfortable enough with his/her own body and own sexuality to do something like that.
And fuck 'em if they can't take a joke.¤ ¤ credit: Joelle | 04.20.03 at 07:02 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
This is going to be weird, but my mom DID pose for soem of those "Naturist" magazines in the 1960's. She did both before and after I was born. It was strange to see what she looked like before I was born and before I remember her.
For her it was one part Women's Lib and one part personal necessity. She told me, many years after the fact, that the photos "in this magazine were for rent, in this one for medical treatments for you adn this one for a bus ticket to California." Where she met my dad.
SHe gave me those magazines and a lesson that has stuck with me. All of thsoe women that pose or do what ever, are someone's daughter or sister, possibly wife or mother. They do it for a variety of reasons, sometimes out of presevation.
I still have those magazines, hidden away, partly beccause they are valuable, partly because it is a part of my family history. My mom went on to raise two well adjusted children and teach elementary school for 35 years.
Honestly, this is a tempest in a teapot. I hope it blows over, quickly.
Oh, and Robyn, Illegetimae non carborundum. (Modified for gender here...)¤ ¤ credit: MunDane | 04.21.03 at 05:38 PM | link--this ¤ ¤
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