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Posted: 10.29.2002
A pre-dawn tree-hugging, hippie liberal rant
You can quote the Second Amendment to me all you want. I for one am. Sick. Of This. Shit. And I'm sick of the same old "guns don't kill people..." lines. It's to the point I'm almost grateful that I don't have a child, so I don't have to conduct a 3-hour interview with so-and-so's parents about their beliefs and responsibility concerning gun ownership and use before I allow my daughter / son to go across the street and play with Barbies / GI Joe. You cannot possibly give me ANY explanation that is good enough for a civilian to own a Bushmaster .223. You can try. But that doesn't mean I'll agree.

You don't need that much fire-power with cop-killing bullets to kill Bambi for dinner, or defend your family during a break-in.

When our forefathers founded this country, they were loading muskets. You had to sit there and really think what you were doing as you added and packed the gunpowder. Who could have ever dreamed we'd have the firepower available five minutes away at the Wal Mart on the corner like we do today? What is so wrong with tracing a gun to its owner anyway? We have to register our cars. We have to file to buy a house. We have to register to fucking fish in a lake, as well as register the boat to get us there. If you're planning on using it responsibly in the first place, why does anyone care that the weapon is being registered? Idiots with guns are killing people. Period. And I'm sick about worrying when lay-off cuts hit my husband's company, that one of the people let go is going to come back and shoot everyone there. Something has to be done, because I'm sorry folks -- the current system is not working. </off soapbox>

Hey boy take a look at me...let me dirty up your mind...

Guns are not the issue. Do you think these people would not have taken up a knife or even a chainsaw if they couldn't find a gun?

Dan and I are buying each other Taurus .25 cal semi-autos here shortly. We're also buying a gun safe to store them in. The reason we're going with such a small caliber is because we are both marksmen.

For the untrained individual who merely wants to protect their home from the myriad lunatics that can kick the door down at any moment, the larger the caliber (or just go straight for the street sweeper shotgun), the better the chance they have of not being raped/murdered because of the size of the resulting hole in their attacker. Doesn't matter where they hit them, just that they do.

I agree something needs to change. And that something should at least be mandatory training for license applicants. Banning higher calibers or full autos is pissing into the wind. They exist, people will get their hands on them. The human animal has an amazing ability to rationalize away consequences, or refuse to consider them at all, range training helps them retain a sense of reality.

My brother and I were exposed to, and trained with, guns from a young age. As a result, I do not think of a gun as anything but a tool. I get no rush of power when I hold or fire one, and I know exactly the consequences should I fire one in anger or by accident.

Responsibility. Parenting our children instead of befriending them. Educating them that EVERYTHING has consequences. Half our social problems would disappear overnight if you had to also have a license to procreate.

¤ ¤ credit: Sekimori | 10.29.02 at 06:31 AM | link--this ¤ ¤

I still respectfully disagree. People in the UK do just fine without all the weaponry floating around legally. It's a shame our society here in the States can't.

And as for taking a knife or a chainsaw -- the case of Jack the Ripper pretty much agrees with that, even with my UK argument. However, how many chainsaw rampages (outside of the movies) have actually occurred? Students bring guns to school -- not chainsaws. It's much easier to conceal and fire a gun without thinking than to fire up a chainsaw and use it.

¤ ¤ credit: robyn | 10.29.02 at 07:28 AM | link--this ¤ ¤

No they do not. Hear about the farmer who went to jail for life for defending his home against a burglar? Or the young man who is going to jail for five years for stabbing a burglar armed only with a crowbar. Would the burglar merely have threatened him with the crowbar or bashed his skull in?

The folks over at Samizdata do an admirable job keeping track of the UK Idiotarians...read anything in this category.

¤ ¤ credit: Sekimori | 10.29.02 at 07:35 AM | link--this ¤ ¤

Your addendum makes my point of responsible parenting quite nicely. :) I never, EVER, thought to bring a gun to school...because I knew EXACTLY what would happen, both if I fired it and if I were caught.

It's all about responsibility.

¤ ¤ credit: Sekimori | 10.29.02 at 07:37 AM | link--this ¤ ¤

Look -- I'm not saying you shouldn't have the right to bear arms. The Constitution says that you do depending on which interpretation you choose to make. But if the guns are being used for legitimate purpose, what is the harm for safety training and licensing. You can't even get a learner's permit without an exam. And a gun is a much more dangerous weapon than a car.

There are going to be "bad guys" with or without guns. There always have been. But murder rates per capita don't lie.

We are completely and respectfully agreeing to disagree here. And you're not going to change my mind or my stance.

¤ ¤ credit: robyn | 10.29.02 at 07:44 AM | link--this ¤ ¤

That's the thing I never understand about arguing politics...why are you not convinced by my arguments? :)

¤ ¤ credit: Sekimori | 10.29.02 at 07:50 AM | link--this ¤ ¤

Look -- nudie pics! ;-)

¤ ¤ credit: robyn | 10.29.02 at 07:51 AM | link--this ¤ ¤

Amen, sistah. I posted about this the other day, though not as eloquently as you. ;-) (I think it was the "register to fucking fish" line that got me.) My issue is the NRA is screaming education, yet this country does nothing but CUT anything that might educate its citizens. So unless the NRA can step up and make a real effort in backing up the kind of mentality that Sekimori was raised with, I'm all for gun control. We have all these ads out trying to control drugs, where the hell are the effors to controlling the assholes out there thinking they're superpowers because they can pull a trigger?

¤ ¤ credit: erika | 10.29.02 at 08:47 AM | link--this ¤ ¤

Whooo Boy. That's a big ol, can of worms. My take on it is that 30 helens are going to agree to disagree on this one. I have to agree with Seki on this one. Education. There is always going to be illegal guns on the street, no matter how hard we try to fight gun control laws. It's like the war on drugs. It's never ending I think guns on the street could be reduced somewhat by licensed responsible gun owners locking their firearms up properly. So many people just leave their guns too easily accessible. *sigh*. Just my .02

¤ ¤ credit: statia | 10.29.02 at 09:28 AM | link--this ¤ ¤

I've said it before, I'll say it again: "Our Second Amendment gives us the right to bear arms, so keep the guns legal and outlaw the bullets." No constitutional problems that way, the gun freaks can own their guns and the criminals can't use them against us. Now if somebody breaks into your house they have to take a chance you don't have illegal bullets in your gun ... is it worth the risk?

Also, the spirit of the Constitution is for people to own guns so they can keep the government in check. I.E. if the gov't thinks the people can overthrow them at any time, they'll act more responsibly. Well, do you really think your shotgun is going to do well against the M-1 Abrahms tank? Or your semi-automatic "hunting" rifle will protect you from the laser-guided bomb that was just dropped by the stealth bomber? Hmm? Didn't think so.

¤ ¤ credit: tj | 10.29.02 at 09:45 AM | link--this ¤ ¤

Truly you have a dizzying intellect.

¤ ¤ credit: Sekimori | 10.29.02 at 10:29 AM | link--this ¤ ¤

Well, I've read all this....sheesh...

I come from a family of hunters...I can remember days where my mom and dad came home dripping in deer blood after spending the day in the woods hunting Bambi. I've never been a big fan of hunting or guns...but as a child raised in a family with guns hanging on the wall without being locked up, I do know that ifyou're parents teach you how to respect guns you will.

HOWEVER..with that being said, I don't think most parents DO teach kids gun responsibility. Mostly because they "don't have enough time" or that the "child will just learn it." And I don't think that you need to have a semi automatic or an automatic to hunt. Please...if you're hunting for "sport" then friggin learn how to shoot a gun tha tatkes more effort then learning to chew gum.

I've read some above comments about, "Well, if people didn't have guns they'd have chain saws or knives." Whatever...you don't see chain saws or knife snipers....you don't see people not being able to run away....knives and chain saws are dangerous weapons yes....and people get killed by them..yes...but not guns...guns are a different story. And I really think that if you look at other countries who have strict gun laws and look at their crime rate you'd see that there is a connection between the crime rate and our ignorant policy on guns.


¤ ¤ credit: Amytart | 10.29.02 at 10:30 AM | link--this ¤ ¤

Gotta weigh in on this one...I was raised with about 5 hunting rifles stored in the same hall closet where my coat and jacket were stored. The most scared I have ever seen my dad was when he discovered that he had put a shotgun in there loaded and left it for several months. If you ask him now, he will tell you he wishes they had things like gun safes and trigger locks in those days. He was a hunter, I was taught to hunt as a child and I love hunting to this day. I was also taught a very healthy respect for those guns. Even though I have a 6 year old living here, if I had a place to go hunting I would buy a gun safe first, ammo safe second, and then a gun or two. Unfortunately, I live in St. Pete and the only thing to hunt here is idiots and for some reason that is illegal.
All that being said, I'll never join the NRA. While I do feel our right to own guns should be protected, it disturbs me that they (the NRA) have an issue over "fingerprinting" guns at the factory. If I had a gun now, I would take it to the ATF to be fingerprinted just because if a person were to die by that gun I would want them caught as quickly as possible. I hate the NRA's "give them an inch and they will take a mile" attitude. At this point, a mile wouldn't be so bad to give up anyway.
Besides, like Ted Nugent says, "Hunting with anything more than a bow and arrow is admitting the prey is superior."

¤ ¤ credit: Bill | 10.29.02 at 10:30 AM | link--this ¤ ¤

Being frequently called a ultra liberal radical left-winger peacenik... and being an admitted member of the Green Party...
I thought I would express my views.

Although I'm not going to start buying Charlton Heston's Bible books off Mexican satellite television...

I do believe in the right to bear arms.


I believe that the gun registration law ENFORCEMENT is PISS POOR.
I don't think we need to make more gun laws... I think the problem lies in PROPERLY ENFORCING THE ONES THAT ALREADY EXIST... since it seems like NOBODY IS ENFORCING THOSE LAWS ANYWAY - what's the point of making more?

I also don't see that it would be such a great hardship for people not to own automatic weapons.

¤ ¤ credit: Chloe | 10.29.02 at 10:58 AM | link--this ¤ ¤


¤ ¤ credit: hoopty | 10.29.02 at 11:08 AM | link--this ¤ ¤

Here's a question Why is John Ashcroft and the Justice Department willing to fingerprint and track every immigrant that comes into this country but they are not willing to have guns registered and ballistic fingerprints done? It just doesn't make sense. If one life can be saved isnt't it all worth it.

¤ ¤ credit: Ericka | 10.29.02 at 11:40 AM | link--this ¤ ¤

Our right to a firearm is Constitutionally protected. Driving is a privilege not guaranteed.

Handguns are illegal in DC and it still has the highest handgun related deaths. Both the UK and Austrialia have gun bans and their crime rates have increased since.

Fingerprinting won't work. You can alter a ballistic fingerprint with a file from the hardware store. Besides, the cops trace a gun to the owner and the owner shows the police report filed several years ago that it has been stolen. The cops are back to square one. And the beltway sniper wasn't found at his home.

The beltway sniper was ex-military. If a license to own a firearm were needed he would have had one.

There is nothing wrong with owning a Bushmaster. Any rifle could have been used.

Seki is right especially about the responsibility.

We need more enforcement of existing laws. Janet Reno's Justice Dept. has released more gun carrying felons back onto our streets with a mere slap on the wrist that administrations prior. Why? It is against the law for a felon to handle a firearm. By-the-way, gun related crimes are dropping, more so in states that allow concealed carry.

¤ ¤ credit: Sid | 10.29.02 at 12:58 PM | link--this ¤ ¤

to return to an earlier point about chainsaws and knives also being dangerous -- yes, they are. but the thing about guns is distance. it's a heckuva lot different when you have to get upclose and personal with a deadly weapon. it is sooo much easier to pull a trigger from 10 or 100 yards, than to be within knife or even chainsaw range.

i don't believe proper gun education is ever going to be a priority, and i think we need very very stringent regulations about buying guns, and a huge effort made to get illegal (assault and automatic) weapons off the streets. the Second Amendment was written in the time of cap-and-ball muskets. had they known where weapons technology was headed, i'm sure they'd have made some provisions to prevent the kind of carnage we're seeing today.

and since the war on drugs is such a bust, maybe we can switch the funding over to anti-violence messages and campaigns to educate people in gun safety, all while removing the most dangerous weapons from circulation.

¤ ¤ credit: kd | 10.29.02 at 01:27 PM | link--this ¤ ¤

I'm going to take NO stance on the current issue of gun control ... but is it wrong of me to wish that guns had never been invented in the first place? The only legitimate purposes that guns really serve (hunting) can almost as easily be accomplished with composite bows. Every other purpose (unless you're Homer Simpson) for guns to me seems to involve killing, maiming, or frightening people, and NONE of those is good enough reason for me to EVER own a gun.

¤ ¤ credit: ste | 10.29.02 at 01:35 PM | link--this ¤ ¤

Gun = Power.

[People lacking Guns] = [People lacking Power.]

Amendment #2 exists soley for the benefit of the People, who reserve the right (and have the obligation) to overthrow through any means needed a Government no longer acting on thier behalf. Because sometimes in the course of Human Events, it becomes necessary.

Poverty is the root cause of most of the murders that happen. Solve that problem, and the gun violence becomes a minor inconvenience.

¤ ¤ credit: Dan Isaacs | 10.29.02 at 02:48 PM | link--this ¤ ¤

Ste... have you ever tried to hunt with a composite bow? Ever tried to sit up in a tiny tree stand with a big-ass bow drawn? I don't hunt, but my father does... with both a bow and a shotgun. You aren't going to convince any hunter who's tried both that it's "almost as easy" to hunt with one!!

I was also raised with guns. I don't like them, I don't own them, but I sure as hell knew what to do with one growing up. Education, education, education is the answer.

I heard an interesting argument the other day for why making guns illegal (as opposed to gun control, I'll get to that in a sec) won't work in the U.S. We have an attitude of the individual, countries that make guns illegal aren't countries were individualization is a priority. Americans trust themselves for protection over government protection... it's built into our psyches and our way of life. It's always been this way, because that's why the United States was founded in the first place. Other countries are raised to trust the government to do their thinking and protecting for them.

Gun "control," otherwise known as "making people jump through hoops" is good, in my opinion. If you have no history or bad intentions, then you should have no problem with registering and going through the process. Just don't take away the ability to get a gun if you think you need one.

The saddest thing, in my opinion, is that parents who are anti-firearms tell their children NOTHING about what to do if they encounter one, because they think the problem will never crop up... but what happens when their kid plays over at someone else's house??

¤ ¤ credit: Katie | 10.29.02 at 03:03 PM | link--this ¤ ¤

"Our right to a firearm is Constitutionally protected. Driving is a privilege not guaranteed."

I've never argued that if you'll read what I wrote and my comments. The Constitution, however, doesn't say a damn thing about mandatory licensing to use weapons and registration. Again, if you plan on using them responsibly in the first place -- what's the problem?

And quoting the D.C. law is laughable at best. Do you realize how many states and metropolitan areas border or are very near the District of Columbia? Sometimes you can't even tell when you've crossed into one city or another...

¤ ¤ credit: robyn | 10.29.02 at 04:00 PM | link--this ¤ ¤

in the news today:

Man pleads guilty in hunting death of friend

Student wounded in school shooting at Jersey City, N.J.

Arizona nursing school shooting suspect's classmates recall 'angry' student; three profs dead

Need we say more?

¤ ¤ credit: erika | 10.29.02 at 04:06 PM | link--this ¤ ¤

Actually, crime has fallen in the UK: it bears a close correlation to the economy, which has been buoyant since handguns were banned. (no causal connection, to my knowledge!)

Reported 'Violent Street' crime has increased, but is largely due to teenagers mugging teenagers for mobile phones, which need to be reported to the police to get a crime number so that the phone companies can take necessary action (which, BTW, is not enough).

Where I live is pretty much the shooting capital of Britain, but I don't feel affected or threatened, because it's almost exclusively drug turf wars. Once every so often there are innocent bystanders caught in the crossfire, but I feel that I am far more likely to be killed/maimed by a driver in a stolen car.

There is a defence in Engish Law of self-defence by reasonable force. The farmer who got a longish sentence shot an intruder in the back, having bragged to his village that he was going to shoot the bastards, and was just this side as certifiably insane.

I couldn't buy a gun legally, and I know that the police almost have a shoot on site policy if they see someone brandishing a firearm - or a cigarette lighter that looks like a gun, as happened down the road. I personally do not know anybody - although I know two GBloggers - who would wish to own a gun.

¤ ¤ credit: Gert | 10.29.02 at 05:24 PM | link--this ¤ ¤

I've never argued that if you'll read what I wrote and my comments.

I apologize :) Now where were those nudie pics?

¤ ¤ credit: Sid | 10.29.02 at 07:33 PM | link--this ¤ ¤

Here. ;-p

¤ ¤ credit: robyn | 10.29.02 at 09:34 PM | link--this ¤ ¤

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